User talk:Wynthyst

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Talk Archive

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• Archive 1

Language :/

Hey, i have a little question to the language. Is it in the future possible to see the whole wiki in German :/ ? Sorry for my bad English :D

Everything is possible. I'm not sure how the community here wishes to handle translation projects though, You might want to ask on the forum. -- Wynthyst talk 14:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Javascript enable for Users ?

Hi Wynthyst,
I'm looking to implement a tooltip coord template to show specific entries, items and other stuff directly on a map. Is it possible to enable $wgAllowUserJs ? I've created http://www.wikiswtor.com/User:Zophar/test.js with a simple alert("Hello World") which is supposed to check if the feature is enable but nothing happen. Is it possible to enable it? Zophar 14:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

As far as I am aware user js is enabled, but I will ask to make sure. -- Wynthyst talk 16:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

My bad, it is enabled you're right. I've forgot to create the Common.js in my user space and use the "importScript" function... Sorry ;) Zophar 20:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

No worries, glad you were able to figure it out. -- Wynthyst talk 04:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Artists and source fields in image templates

The two parameters, artist and source, are important aspects of our image licensing templates. There are instances when fairuse practices require these parameters to be included if known, as the copyright status of an item does not always reflect the item's origins. Additionally, they are common identifiers required by some of the more popular image usage licenses. Finally, it is a matter of curtsey and respect to the creators and our users to include this information, if it is relevant and known. The parameters may not be utilized all the time, but they need to be present and were added specifically to meet these considerations.

In particular the source parameter is used frequently throughout the project. It's how we lend support to DarthHaterDB when we upload icons obtained from them, and the removal of this parameter would eliminate all of these links across the wiki. -- Heaven's Agent 13:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

We are not here to provide links to other sites, even DH DB. We already do plenty of that in the pages. Stop hindering the forward progress of this wiki with your invalid arguments regarding citation requirements. You've been told by 2 members of Curse staff that it is not a requirment. I simply made it more feasible by removing the source fields from the template. -- Wynthyst talk 16:29, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Hold up. I am not "hindering the forward progress of this wiki"; I want this project to succeed, possibly more than you since I have an invested interest in both this project and the game itself. You, admittedly, don't play the game. This is your job, but it is my passion. Your statement seems to insinuate that I am sabotaging our work here, and quite frankly that is insulting. I simply value the integrity of this project, its content, and its contributors.

Those fields were added to the project after a consensus had been reached among the members of this project's contributor community. They may not be required in all instances, but they are in some. Creators that release their work under Creative Commons have the right to determine how attribution of their work is made, and they usually require a link to the original source and identification. Similar restrictions are also commonly placed on works released under the GNU. Additionally, it reflects poorly on our community if we don't recognize the sources of content we do not obtain ourselves. In such situations the game community generally views the act to be theft, regardless of any actual legal stipulations that may or may not apply. If this project is to be successful, we need to appeal to the game's community. They're the ones that will determine if this wiki succeeds or fails, and they generally value transparency and honesty. They can be a driving force in promoting a project, or an active wave of dissent that can destroy a project's reputation and momentum. I, for one, want to win the community's support.

We may not be here to provide links to other sites, but we are here to provide information to our community. To document the game as best we can. If we find other projects beneficial enough to work with, beneficial enough to draw support and resources from, we should provide appropriate links to them as well. If we find they have resources and value that we lack, the chances are good that our users will find these projects useful as well. -- Heaven's Agent 17:01, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I have refrained from responding to this to give the situation time to cool off. However, I see by your post on Zophar's talk page that you still don't get it. You ARE hindering the forward progress of this wiki with this nonsense, as it's stopping Zophar from adding needed improvements. Images pulled from the client (even those that we don't pull ourselves) are NOT screenshots, they are official SWTOR images, and as such do not require sourcing.

I find your attitude about my interest in the success of this wiki to be insulting and I believe an apology is in order, as the success of ALL Curse wikis are most assuredly my vested interest as it pays my rent. Just because I get paid to do this, do not think the success of this project is NOT of utmost importance to me.

I don't argue that images licensed under CC licenses require sourcing, this is simply NOT THE CASE here, because these are not CC licensed images (or GNU), they are images that are Copyright Bioware that we are using under FAIR USE. Bioware is NOT going to sue us for their use, (even if we resize them), and ZAM can't sue us because they don't own the images, and therefore do not require source attribution.

While I appreciate your wish to be legally correct, in this instance you are not. -- Wynthyst talk 20:56, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

With due respect, Wyn, I will not apologize. Especially with no offer of apology from you; if you took offense at my words, then you understand how I felt when you insinuated something similar about me. If you take the time to re-read what I said, though, you will realize that I did not state you lack interest in this project. What I said was that you do not demonstrate an interest in the success of this project other than as it pertains to your job, sentiment which you echoed in your response.

You do not contribute to the articles. You are not an active member of this growing community. You show up from time to time, dictate a heavy-handed policy, and dismiss the validity of any dissent. How are we supposed to build a successful resource and community if control of the resource and community is taken out of our hands on a whim? I did not remove the maps that were uploaded, I simply told Zophar not to upload any more until we had a chance to resolve the issue. And despite your proclamation to the contrary, it is very much unresolved. The fact that we are still discussing this proves it.

When I first came to this project you told me that "As the community grows, it will develop it's own "personality" within the very broad boundaries that Curse sets .." and "... once there is a community base in place, I will fade into the background, and will generally only be around to deal with problems related to the software, or spam control, not the day to day running of the site, which includes content design." We have to follow Curse policy, but determination of the images we do or don't use is not a matter of Curse policy. If you want to control the project beyond that, then you need to take an active role in this community.

What happens if the game community discovers we're stealing images from a competing resource? Without asking for permission first? Without even noting where they were obtained? I am not trying to ensure that we are legally correct. I am attempt to preserve the integrity of our work. We are growing at a faster rate than any competing wiki. Or content is better organized, better sourced, and quite simply held to a higher standard. Our interface is better than the primary alternative's by far, and we are not fettered by burdensome advertisements that are so prolific that they hide content from our users. At this point success is ours to lose, and doing something unnecessary that could easily alienate the game's player population against us would be the fastest way of accomplishing this.

I am not sabotaging the project. I recognize the need for these images, but there should be no need to sacrifice our integrity in order to obtain them. If the maps were taken from the client, we should be able to obtain them in the same way. To that end I've been spending significant time over the past week attempting to determine how to access the images ourselves. There is a considerable learning curve for me to overcome as I am approaching the problem with almost no prior knowledge of the subject, but I am making progress. If you would like to help, you can ask the folks at the DarthHaterDB how they obtained their maps. Maybe ask them if there's a way for us to access and utilize their maps directly; there should be no problem linking to DarthHaterDB as the source of the images, should there? -- Heaven's Agent 23:56, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

How images are tagged and handled is very much a Curse policy, and I have tried and tried to explain to you what it is. Images that are obtained from the client (any client) is copyright the game company. No site owns it, not ours, not Zam, not ANYONE but the game company. That is not simply Curse policy, that is copyright LAW here in the US. As such, we tag these images as Bioware copyright, and move on. You don't like it? TOO BAD. You feel it lessens the integrity of this project? I'm sorry. I can not have you telling other users not to upload images after I have told them to, that undermines the forward progress of this wiki. I am so not into reinventing the wheel, and neither should you be.

And seriously... what's the fastest way they are going to find out? YOU TELLING THEM with unnecessary source citations, and big huge public arguments. THIS MATTER IS RESOLVED, now move on. If you want to ask the folks at DarthHater how they got their images, go for it.. they will tell you they were uploaded by Curse staff after deconstructing the client just like every other image on the DarthHater database. The simple fact is they are the same images used on ZAM, it's just easier for us (wiki editors like you and me) to get them from ZAM. I will NOT see the forward progress of this wiki halted while waiting for our overworked tech team to upload them here as well.

Lastly, DO NOT tell me I have not contributed to the articles here. I was contributing long before you defected from Wikia. -- Wynthyst talk 00:29, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking about now, Wyn. You've withdrawn from the project, as you told me you would. You have not been a part of this project's current community. If I went back to the Wikia project and wanted to hand down a decision, do you think I'd have a leg to stand on? Discussions and decisions were made in your absence, and they should be respected.

How an image is tagged is a matter of Curse policy? Then why are we only hearing about this now? We've been in one debate after another hashing out how we should document images and you've never shared this information. What is the policy, then? Share it with us. What about the images we do or do not use? is that a matter of Curse policy as well? I was under the impression that this was a community project, not Wyn's personal sandbox. You're unilaterally changing decisions the community made together. Are you going to listen to our opinions, or take full control? -- Heaven's Agent 01:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I withdrew from the project because my understanding was that Ausir (who is MY boss btw) was stepping in in my place. He however does not seem to be making it clear to you that this is a non argument situation. Just because you don't see me here daily does not in any way mean I have not been reading and following your discussions. I only step in when I see things I feel are harmful for the forward progress of the wiki. This is one instance where you have shut down another user because of nonsense arguments. This is harmful to the forward progress of the wiki, so I have stepped in. I have not publicly "left" the community, as you did Wikia, and you are also not Wikia staff. My guess is that if Wikia staff stepped in and told them something they would listen. They might gripe about it, but afterall, Wikia owns that wiki, so their representatives, and what their representatives have to say about how things are done is important. You are blowing me off because this is my job.... well, I am a representative of Curse, who owns this wiki, so whether I have been visibly contributing to the project on a daily basis or not, what I have to say is important. I am not ending the world as you know it, I'm simply clarifying a point of copyright law and giving you instructions as to how it should be handled. You are the one going off because "I'm ruining the integrity of this project where I have no vested interest"..... give me a break already. -- Wynthyst talk 01:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not claiming the action is illegal. I'm not questioning a Curse policy. I'm stating that we're supposed to have creative control of the project. We're supposed to be able to decide if we steal images from a competing project or not.

As I said several times now, there has to be an alternative. Stealing TORHead's images may not be illegal, but it is immoral. The game community would tear us apart if they discovered we had done something like that, and if you truly believe they won't find out you're deluding yourself. They always find out. That's why people endorse transparency: they can find and bring to light indiscretions like the one you're now telling us we have to support.

A community decision was made to credit the source of images we obtain. Not everyone does it, and we don't tell someone they can't upload images if they forget or are unaware of this, but we still try to uphold that desicion when possible. Now, we can't link to TORHead. Fine. Personally I think that particular policy is a steaming pile, but that's how it is. So I ask you to respect the decision that was made and help us find an alternative course of action. Help us find a way to obtain the maps without stealing them from a resource we can't link to as a source. Or stay out of our way and let us try ourselves. We might succeed, we might fail. Either way, creative decisions should be ours to make. -- Heaven's Agent 01:52, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

You say this is a "community decision" yet, you are the only one that has said anything about it. As for the game community getting upset about our "immoral practices" I think you are deluding yourself, and of course they are going to find out, because you are broadcasting it to all and sundry by continuing to argue about it. Had you simply accepted what both Ausir and I said to begin with, and tagged them as SWTOR official images, copyright Bioware, none of the rest of this conversation would have been necessary. There is also a difference between giving the community "creative control" over a project, and letting them stall it out due to unnecessary practices. -- Wynthyst talk 09:40, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm telling you right now, if we continue on this course I am going to do more than just bring it up here. I told you when I started here that I was coming to build a future home for the Wikia contributors, because I believe the project is doomed to collapse under Wikia's decision to become a social network, rather than an network of encyclopedic resources. I won't sit idle and allow the integrity of our work here to be dismissed; I have witnessed first hand the response that can result when a game's community learns of indiscretions such as the one your pushing upon us. I've witnessed community support shift to a lesser resource simply because of immoral decisions, and as a result that lesser resource quickly overtook its competition. The game community does care, and we are answerable to them. If this continues I will have to contact TORHead, explain the situation, explain that we cannot link to their project in any way as a source for the images, and ask for their consent anyway.

As for the decision to cite image sources, I may be the only one bringing it up but it was a community decision, made by those of us who discussed its merit at the time. If I am the only one remaining that believes it's worthwhile then maybe those of us here currently should revisit it, but it should be our decision to make, not yours to dictate. You assured me the community would have creative control of this project, within the boundaries defined by Curse policy. Now you're handing down creative decisions. We are not employees of Curse. We are not your subordinates. We are an independent creative community hosted on the Curse Network. We are volunteers working to build a resource for the SWTOR community that Curse benefits from, but the benefit of Curse is not our objective. We have to follow Curse policy, but unless something is demanded by policy creative control of this project is supposed to be ours to make. Is this the case, or am I wrong? -- Heaven's Agent 13:34, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

(Resetting Indent)
It's been a week; are you going to respond? -- Heaven's Agent 19:40, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

How copyright is handled is not a creative decision, it's a matter of legal responsibility. I've already explained to you the legal responsibility for handling official images. There's not much more to say. Source citation for official images is not necessary. -- Wynthyst talk 13:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying it needed from a legal perspective. I'm saying it's needed from an accountability perspective, and as something that was decided we would observe. Are you saying we can't make such decisions on our own? Or are we allowed to make choices like this ourselves and abide by them? -- Heaven's Agent 16:45, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

You keep referencing a community discussion of this.. can you link me please? -- Wynthyst talk 16:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Well shoot, I can't find any indication that the discussion took place; the memory is so vivid that I can literally see the text in my mind, see the context and location of the discussion, but it looks like what I remember never ever actually occurred.

I apologize. I'm very embarrassed. And a tad bit worried.

That doesn't change the issue of accountability. Just because we can do something doesn't mean that we should. Legally we could take the relevant images from any source and use them so long as Bioware and LucasArts are given credit for the graphics. In taking the images without asking or providing source attribution, though, we would be creating a situation that could do serious harm to our efforts if ever discovered. The validity and origin of our content would become suspect; we cannot claim to be an encyclopedic resource if we do not follow proper source citation principles. In order to effectively pursue our goals for this project, our integrity is paramount. We have to establish it, we have to maintain. Without it, the game community won't trust us as a resource. They won't use our information. And ultimately, as is done with any Curse project that doesn't see enough traffic, we would be shut down.

This should not even be a concern. There are alternatives to taking the images without consent. We could ask for that consent, and hope it's given despite our inability to link to their resource, or we could obtain the images elsewhere. I don't think I'm currently capable of pulling the maps from the client, but after doing some checking I think screenshots may be a valid alternative. -- Heaven's Agent 17:35, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok.. let's look at this from a different perspective. Would you agree that the maps on the DarthHater db are official swtor images? And if so, would you also agree that the maps on TORHead are also official swtor images? They are the same images, just handled differently... the ones on DarthHater are split into 4 pieces to accommodate the google map thing they use for displaying them, rather than simply displaying the single image. If you can agree that both sets of images are official swtor images, then even based on the licensing templates you established, tagging them as official images would be the most appropriate. And in that case no source citation is necessary. I DO understand your position, I just feel you are really taking things to the extreme. -- Wynthyst talk 17:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

We still would not be holding ourselves responsible for our actions, for our content: a source needs to be provided. Let's face facts, our work here boils down to writing isolated and brief reports, which we then provide to our peer community to be reviewed and utilized. Peer-reviewed documents hold no validity unless the sources are cited so that they can be verified.

Additionally, we have no way of knowing if those images are actually taken from the client. It's highly likely, but we cannot know. We don't even have any way of knowing if they're titled correctly; we have to maintain the title assigned to an original work by its creator. If those maps are taken from the client, they cannot reflect file names that are different than those they have been assigned in the client.

Ultimately it's not worth compromising our ethical standards, especially with a viable alternative available. -- Heaven's Agent 18:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm done arguing about this. All the images will be uploaded to the wiki sometime in the next 2 weeks, they will be tagged as official swtor images, as they have been extracted from the client. I now consider this subject closed. -- Wynthyst talk 21:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm jumping in here to let you guys know that I've figured out how to extract the images from the client. I've created a forum post about it. Sizing and format input is needed. Thanks! -- Alianin T • C 21:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Alianin, but we can mass import them via the server, we just have to wait til the person who has them gets back from his honeymoon. -- Wynthyst talk 21:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Any news on this? It's been several weeks now with no data import. -- Heaven's Agent 11:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I've asked repeatedly, but I will ask again. -- Wynthyst talk 12:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Let us know what's coming of this; if the maps aren't going to be imported after all, we can start pulling them ourselves. -- Heaven's Agent 14:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Start pulling them yourselves.... this is not being given any priority by our devs. -- Wynthyst talk 12:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)